diff --git a/src/structures/GuildChannel.js b/src/structures/GuildChannel.js
index 481d3cf..527a253 100644
--- a/src/structures/GuildChannel.js
+++ b/src/structures/GuildChannel.js
@@ -5,6 +5,7 @@ const { Error } = require('../errors');
 const PermissionOverwriteManager = require('../managers/PermissionOverwriteManager');
 const { VoiceBasedChannelTypes } = require('../util/Constants');
 const Permissions = require('../util/Permissions');
+const Util = require('../util/Util');
 
 /**
  * Represents a guild channel from any of the following:
@@ -145,8 +146,21 @@ class GuildChannel extends Channel {
    * @readonly
    */
   get position() {
-    const sorted = this.guild._sortedChannels(this);
-    return [...sorted.values()].indexOf(sorted.get(this.id));
+    const selfIsCategory = this.type === 'GUILD_CATEGORY';
+    const types = Util.getSortableGroupTypes(this.type);
+
+    let count = 0;
+    for (const channel of this.guild.channels.cache.values()) {
+      if (!types.includes(channel.type)) continue;
+      if (!selfIsCategory && channel.parentId !== this.parentId) continue;
+      if (this.rawPosition === channel.rawPosition) {
+        if (BigInt(channel.id) < BigInt(this.id)) count++;
+      } else if (this.rawPosition > channel.rawPosition) {
+        count++;
+      }
+    }
+
+    return count;
   }
 
   /**
diff --git a/src/structures/Role.js b/src/structures/Role.js
index 76f02ac..afe1499 100644
--- a/src/structures/Role.js
+++ b/src/structures/Role.js
@@ -228,8 +228,13 @@ class Role extends Base {
    * @readonly
    */
   get position() {
-    const sorted = this.guild._sortedRoles();
-    return [...sorted.values()].indexOf(sorted.get(this.id));
+    let count = 0;
+    for (const role of this.guild.roles.cache.values()) {
+      if (this.rawPosition > role.rawPosition) count++;
+      else if (this.rawPosition === role.rawPosition && BigInt(this.id) > BigInt(role.id)) count++;
+    }
+
+    return count;
   }
 
   /**
diff --git a/src/util/Util.js b/src/util/Util.js
index b308676..5c581d1 100644
--- a/src/util/Util.js
+++ b/src/util/Util.js
@@ -12,6 +12,10 @@ const isObject = d => typeof d === 'object' && d !== null;
 let deprecationEmittedForSplitMessage = false;
 let deprecationEmittedForRemoveMentions = false;
 
+const TextSortableGroupTypes = ['GUILD_TEXT', 'GUILD_ANNOUCMENT', 'GUILD_FORUM'];
+const VoiceSortableGroupTypes = ['GUILD_VOICE', 'GUILD_STAGE_VOICE'];
+const CategorySortableGroupTypes = ['GUILD_CATEGORY'];
+
 /**
  * Contains various general-purpose utility methods.
  */
@@ -747,6 +751,31 @@ class Util extends null {
     }
   }
 
+  /**
+   * Gets an array of the channel types that can be moved in the channel group. For example, a GuildText channel would
+   * return an array containing the types that can be ordered within the text channels (always at the top), and a voice
+   * channel would return an array containing the types that can be ordered within the voice channels (always at the
+   * bottom).
+   * @param {ChannelType} type The type of the channel
+   * @returns {ChannelType[]}
+   * @ignore
+   */
+  static getSortableGroupTypes(type) {
+    switch (type) {
+      case 'GUILD_TEXT':
+      case 'GUILD_ANNOUNCEMENT':
+      case 'GUILD_FORUM':
+        return TextSortableGroupTypes;
+      case 'GUILD_VOICE':
+      case 'GUILD_STAGE_VOICE':
+        return VoiceSortableGroupTypes;
+      case 'GUILD_CATEGORY':
+        return CategorySortableGroupTypes;
+      default:
+        return [type];
+    }
+  }
+
   /**
    * Calculates the default avatar index for a given user id.
    * @param {Snowflake} userId - The user id to calculate the default avatar index for